My Feelings Toward Joe D Today

August 29, 2008 at 7:25 am (Bio, Thoughts)

So I decided to post my current feelings on the bootcamp I took with Joe Doyle back in late June. This is what I posted:

“Yeah Joes a cool guy and all but a few things

1) Once Joe got my money it was almost impossible to set a date for the bootcamp, He didnt respond to e-mails or phone calls, Had to have Blitz intervine twice for him to call me back.

2) I felt Joe was unprepared to deal with my issues as a student. At one point he even asked me what he should do to help me. When your instructor asks you that you know your in trouble.

3) Joe tended to make things worse for me at times. Like telling me things while I was sarging like “You need to start buying bigger clothes” or “I’ve done everything I can to get your energy up and every other student I’ve done that with has worked your the only one that it hasn’t worked on, I’m at a loss” While I appreciate candor, things like this should be said AFTER your sarge night not during because it made me freak out and get in my head.

4) Joe refused to do Day Game, he just repeated what was on the show because he said he hated day game and felt that it was incongruent with me, I got the impression that he was worried that If I did day game I would get blown out, ruin the high I had and I would be unsatisfied.

5) At the end of the first night I felt Joe gave up on me, he told me about the venusian arts return policy and emphasized that I would not get a refund if I did not follow their system. At the time I felt like he was covering his bases and he was giving up on me as a student.

6) Joe did two demos, one was approaching two girls at a bar with one of his pivots. He made them laugh then ejected, the other was a stripper, he did close but he went for the e-mail instead of a number. I found both the demos kind of disappointing considering I have seen other PUA’s who are non instructors due more impressive sarges.

7) Sometimes I wondered about Joes advice, for example when he told me I needed to be high energy in set, I asked him how to do that and he told just to do it. When i pressed him because I found his answer stupid, he started doing the shrink thing (which i hate by the way) which is answering a question with a question “well what do you think?”.  He told me to “have fun” and to “just be high energy” I remember thinking that if I could just flip a switch in my head to make me high energy and have fun I would not be taking the bootcamp. Besides how can I have fun when…

A) I am self concious due to Joe’s clothes comment

B) I am freaking out because while were at bootcamp or saying things like “out of all my students, your not getting it”

8) I had to pick all the venues we were going to as well as back up venues, for example on Friday we started at Plunge but due to the rain Joes pivots wanted to leave so we left Plunge and I had to come up with alternative venues (which were voided when his pivots bailed on us).  Joe was also specific in his venues needs which kind of left me at a loss he wanted to go to more of a club enviorment when I most of the places I know about are loungues. At one point we almost went to Webster Hall (I was at a loss for clubs) and at the last minute Joe told me we would not go there because his friends who would be going out with us told him Webster Hall was lame. We wound up at park which luckly everyone enjoyed and there was actually a decent night.

9) Joe said he would teach me Dance Floor game but I didnt learn anything.  He didnt teach anything and seemed to make excuses. He made statements like “yeah dance flloor game is hard and not fit for you”.

To sum up, while I did enjoy my time with Joe, I feel that my 2 grand could have been better spent. I have had success after the bootcamp but its been by doing direct game and non routine systems which is what I was doing before. I would have asked for my money back but I felt that I wouldnt have gotten it back because it could have come down to just Venusian arts saying “I didnt try hard enough”. Its a expensive lesson learned.”

Joe’s probably gonna be pissed or he will just blow me off as a guy who wanted a magic pill. I’m honestly hopping he doesn’t respond because its really just my honest opinions of his teaching style. I hope he doesn’t take it as a slam but actually maybe thinks if I might have a some points.

I don’t blame Joe completely on the failure of my bootcamp I know my AA had a hand in the outcome of the weekend. But I keep thinking that at times Joe’s actions made it worse and he just had no clue with dealing with it. I felt like he wrote me off, after the first night.

Yes the second night was better but did I get to that next level in my game? The answer is sadly no. Yes Joe is an awesome cat, I have no ill will against him but he should not be running bootcamps, hes not prepared for it. I couldn’t let me original report sit on the net possibly getting newbies to pay 2 grand for a waste of time.

Every single ounce of success in this blog since that bootcamp has been done using RSD material that Joe dismissed as showing too much interest and would never work. I got more out of the 800 dollars I spent in the Flawless Natural Seminar than I did in the 2 grand I wasted on Joe Doyle. I only wished I would have not buckled to the pressure tactics that I experienced when I tried to cancel my boot camp after being ignored by Joe.

Always trust your gut. Its a hard lesson learned and expensive too.

For the record I have no ill feelings toward Joe. I think he is a very nice guy and I enjoyed his company as a person. I only have issues with him as a teacher…



  1. the judge said,

    Hey dude —

    It made me sad to read this. I remember talking to you after your BC and you seemed so upbeat and positive. While I agree with some of the points on here, I think you’re over projecting how bad the BC actually was. To be honest, you DID make a shit-ton of progress after the BC with Joe.

    Do I think Joe is the greatest teacher? No. I, too, thought he was an incredibly nice guy and thought he was by far the best contestant on the show. HOWEVER, keep in mind, this guy has only been doing this for a year, at most. No matter how much you go out and no matter how much you push yourself, it’s simply impossible to reach a mastery level in that short amount of time (in Joe’s defense, I actually think he’s made SICK strides in his game since the show)

    I blame VA more than I do Joe D. There’s no way they should have him teaching BCs. Perhaps as an intern to Lovedrop and assistant instructor, but I think it goes back to VA being a company run by their greed for profit rather than taking a genuine interest in their students and their success.

    Ultimately, I’d forget all the negative aspects of the BC. If you feel the need to post this on the VA forum to alert other guys who might be considering BC, do it, but I wouldn’t harp on it. Ultimately it’ll only sabotage the strides you DID make after BC. As you said yourself, you’re responsible for your path. Sure the BC might have cost $2K, but it’s only money. In the grand scheme of your life, 2K is nothing. Discontinue your cable and internet service for a year and you’ll have that money back.

    The only other thing that stood out about what you said (and what I’ve heard A LOT of guys complain about BCs from various companies) is the lack of demos. To be honest, aside from the stripper girl I opened, I didn’t see Jeffy run an incredible number of demos either. But it didn’t disappoint me. In all honesty, you’ve seen how the game’s played. You’ve seen enough guys run sets and you know its a reality. Aside from missing out on the sheer entertainment of watching someone project their personality, there’s no reason why instructors should have to feel as if they need to run demos if they obviously have the rep to back up their teachings. If you want a demo, you know I’m always down to run one. I take pride in showing guys this is possible. You do, too. At the next newb sarge I can’t wait to read some new guys FR where he’s talking about “how Warlock blew my mind when he went in and flawless opened a 5-set of hotties and he was making out with one in record time”. Trust in your own success, don’t feel like you need someone to prove this stuff works.

    Finally, don’t get so mad about Joe D doing to routine thing. Sure it’s bullshit and I disagree with it, but it’s also irrelevant in the grand scheme of things. You know how natural game is run. Disregard the trash Joe D told you and focus on what you accomplished that weekend…

    You’ve improved so much since I first saw you, it’s amazing. You don’t even realize it, but it’s obvious to everyone who’s watching you.



  2. Fred said,

    Wow FINALLY the Joe D article has been written….I didnt expect to see it come to fruition so soon lol

    I think that you should post this on VA to warn others about Joe D. He may have solid game i guess (i have no idea…i assume so)…but its good to save newbies of money that they worked hard to save for…for the hope of improvement when it doesnt come to them…

    Anyway with that being said…I’m glad you were able to post the whole true experience on your blog. Now that you have…it will be time to let go. Like Judge said…dont harp on it. You’ve made great strides in your game since I first met you in May….its not even funny. You’re letting this go…and moving on to great things in the future.

    If you decide to do another BC with another company…youll have learned your lesson from the first time.

    Ill see you saturday


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